So, if people are part of nature, human creativity (including telling or writing stories) is necessarily a natural phenomenom. But should we ask more of a "natural story?" Should it tell us something about nature or at least about the human relationship with nature? Should the theme be somehow set in concert with or in opposition to nature?
When I think back to the Westerns of my childhood (many of which I have watched again as an adult) it seems to me that nature, even the spectaculat scenery, was no more than a backdrop to the human drama. It had no role. Some Western novels are a bit better. Louis L'Amour scatters some commentary on the natural world (often, though not always, as a threat) into his better books and Zane Grey loved sunsets. But where is nature in the grandaddy of them all, The Virginian?
A friend told me in, 1971 I guess, that you couldn't really understand life in Wyoming without reading The Virginian. And she was right, at least at the time. LIfe in Wyoming these days makes less sense than it did then. But what role does nature play in that story? As a retreat for the hero and Molly towards the end, mabye? Just before we learn that he is seldom in the saddle anymore because he's too busy making business deals, including for his coal mine?
I am not going down the rabbit hole of how these films and books depict the indigenous. At least not today.
But I wonder about Westerns (and in this I include the Star Wars stories perhaps most of all, as well as the detective stories John writes about) as natural stories. I guess it depends on the definition. Human artifacts are, by definition (for me at least) natural. So if that's all there is to it, sure. But is the lone hero fighting evil a story that reflects (much less respects) natural processes?
I am pretty sure that individualism isn't intrinsic to human nature, that it is taught and learned in certain cultures because it serves certain interests. That's too simple, I know, but I am trying to be provocative here, not comprehensive.
And what about "evil?" Is that really wired in? Are we doomed to be binary? Surely not? So how does the tale of the lonely guy (actually its not always a guy, there's Princess Leia and KInsey Milhone) struggling against those he opposes (who may well think of him as evil) qualify as "natural?"
I was going to say something about the TV series Kung Fu, but will hold back in hopes that there is a dialogue here. A final provocation for the literati. While I admit to a weakness for Louis L'Amour stories that goes back to my teenage years (when a Western cost 75 cents), my favorite novel about the frontier West is David Wagoner's The Road to Many a Wonder, which everyone who has not is hereby instructed to read. Is it a Western? Probably not. Is it a natural story, oh yes.
It seems to me that what’s being nodded at here in the idea of a natural story is along the lines of Joseph Campbell and the hero’s journey. The one flaw I think in the way Campbell’s ideas get talked about currently is that they seem too limiting. Are his ideas misinterpreted or was he himself limited by centuries-long dominant narratives that seemed the only natural stories?
Campbell was, like all of us, a person of his time. I see him as a lot less limited than most, but he wasn't part of our contemporary discussions of colonialism, etc., and so probably not in vogue in academic circles. There's a more personal book, "The Inner Reaches of Outer Space," that you might want to take a look at (more to read, I know, fortunately its fairly thin).
As for the relationship between John's concept of natural stories and the idea of the hero's journey, I defer to John.
I'm afraid I don't have much to add here. I found Campbell too dense to comprehend. As y'all are saying, I gather he was trying to analyze a natural story, and he influenced Star Wars, and he was probably too Eurocentric, and yet it seems Star Wars is also popular in nondominant cultures. So thanks for validating my uninformed intuition! :)
That book sounds interesting. And yes, of course, on Campbell. Though I think his ideas have far more universal reach than they’re given credit for my those who want to use them to justify hierarchies and hardened individualism. I thought of him because I’d heard that’s what Luke Skywalker was based on, Campbell’s hero’s journey.
Wow Lee thanks for your consistent, voluminous, and deep commentary! I hope that others will engage with some of your many points, but let me just touch on the "natural stories." I had toyed with other names for this publication and then realized that to most people "natural story" means something that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with nature. I know you want it to, but I don't think you get to say -- and that's the tension I want to explore here.
And to do so by example: When I was a kid, my pacifist religious parents HATED the idea that I was reading Louis L'Amour, Travis McGee, and Nero Wolfe. But they addressed stuff that I felt, even though it wasn't coming from my family or teachers or church or environmental surroundings. These were to me natural stories.
Helena’s Myrna Loy, no less. Part of the mythology of the West is that somehow “rural” folk are more different than alike in relation to “urban” folk. And, increasingly, it’s getting hard to define “rural.”
Rural hasn't meant what we think (wish?) it did for a long time. While its not great, Steven Conn's recent book The Lies of the Land is a good effort at saying why.
Funny...Lauren and I were just discussing the rise and fall of the detective story and modern crime fiction. Think of all the TV detective shows and western movies and shows during the 50s - 80s! I used to read Elmore Leonard who wrote both urban detective stories and Westerns (though I didn't like his Westerns as much) as well as John MacDonald (Travis McGehee) but now that they are long gone I haven't continued in that same vein (all sailing books all the time). I felt the crime fiction and Westerns were all distinctly American stories providing a window on both urban America (e.g. Detroit) and the Wild West for each of their respective charms. For anyone growing up pre cable and Internet - the books and TV shows offered an education in US geography - the setting provided context for the tough guy who knew his territory regardless of whether it was urban or a ranch somewhere.
So, if people are part of nature, human creativity (including telling or writing stories) is necessarily a natural phenomenom. But should we ask more of a "natural story?" Should it tell us something about nature or at least about the human relationship with nature? Should the theme be somehow set in concert with or in opposition to nature?
When I think back to the Westerns of my childhood (many of which I have watched again as an adult) it seems to me that nature, even the spectaculat scenery, was no more than a backdrop to the human drama. It had no role. Some Western novels are a bit better. Louis L'Amour scatters some commentary on the natural world (often, though not always, as a threat) into his better books and Zane Grey loved sunsets. But where is nature in the grandaddy of them all, The Virginian?
A friend told me in, 1971 I guess, that you couldn't really understand life in Wyoming without reading The Virginian. And she was right, at least at the time. LIfe in Wyoming these days makes less sense than it did then. But what role does nature play in that story? As a retreat for the hero and Molly towards the end, mabye? Just before we learn that he is seldom in the saddle anymore because he's too busy making business deals, including for his coal mine?
I am not going down the rabbit hole of how these films and books depict the indigenous. At least not today.
But I wonder about Westerns (and in this I include the Star Wars stories perhaps most of all, as well as the detective stories John writes about) as natural stories. I guess it depends on the definition. Human artifacts are, by definition (for me at least) natural. So if that's all there is to it, sure. But is the lone hero fighting evil a story that reflects (much less respects) natural processes?
I am pretty sure that individualism isn't intrinsic to human nature, that it is taught and learned in certain cultures because it serves certain interests. That's too simple, I know, but I am trying to be provocative here, not comprehensive.
And what about "evil?" Is that really wired in? Are we doomed to be binary? Surely not? So how does the tale of the lonely guy (actually its not always a guy, there's Princess Leia and KInsey Milhone) struggling against those he opposes (who may well think of him as evil) qualify as "natural?"
I was going to say something about the TV series Kung Fu, but will hold back in hopes that there is a dialogue here. A final provocation for the literati. While I admit to a weakness for Louis L'Amour stories that goes back to my teenage years (when a Western cost 75 cents), my favorite novel about the frontier West is David Wagoner's The Road to Many a Wonder, which everyone who has not is hereby instructed to read. Is it a Western? Probably not. Is it a natural story, oh yes.
It seems to me that what’s being nodded at here in the idea of a natural story is along the lines of Joseph Campbell and the hero’s journey. The one flaw I think in the way Campbell’s ideas get talked about currently is that they seem too limiting. Are his ideas misinterpreted or was he himself limited by centuries-long dominant narratives that seemed the only natural stories?
Campbell was, like all of us, a person of his time. I see him as a lot less limited than most, but he wasn't part of our contemporary discussions of colonialism, etc., and so probably not in vogue in academic circles. There's a more personal book, "The Inner Reaches of Outer Space," that you might want to take a look at (more to read, I know, fortunately its fairly thin).
As for the relationship between John's concept of natural stories and the idea of the hero's journey, I defer to John.
I'm afraid I don't have much to add here. I found Campbell too dense to comprehend. As y'all are saying, I gather he was trying to analyze a natural story, and he influenced Star Wars, and he was probably too Eurocentric, and yet it seems Star Wars is also popular in nondominant cultures. So thanks for validating my uninformed intuition! :)
That book sounds interesting. And yes, of course, on Campbell. Though I think his ideas have far more universal reach than they’re given credit for my those who want to use them to justify hierarchies and hardened individualism. I thought of him because I’d heard that’s what Luke Skywalker was based on, Campbell’s hero’s journey.
https://www.starwars.com/news/mythic-discovery-within-the-inner-reaches-of-outer-space-joseph-campbell-meets-george-lucas-part-i
Well there's a fun rabbit hole!
Wow Lee thanks for your consistent, voluminous, and deep commentary! I hope that others will engage with some of your many points, but let me just touch on the "natural stories." I had toyed with other names for this publication and then realized that to most people "natural story" means something that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with nature. I know you want it to, but I don't think you get to say -- and that's the tension I want to explore here.
And to do so by example: When I was a kid, my pacifist religious parents HATED the idea that I was reading Louis L'Amour, Travis McGee, and Nero Wolfe. But they addressed stuff that I felt, even though it wasn't coming from my family or teachers or church or environmental surroundings. These were to me natural stories.
Helena’s Myrna Loy, no less. Part of the mythology of the West is that somehow “rural” folk are more different than alike in relation to “urban” folk. And, increasingly, it’s getting hard to define “rural.”
Rural hasn't meant what we think (wish?) it did for a long time. While its not great, Steven Conn's recent book The Lies of the Land is a good effort at saying why.
Funny...Lauren and I were just discussing the rise and fall of the detective story and modern crime fiction. Think of all the TV detective shows and western movies and shows during the 50s - 80s! I used to read Elmore Leonard who wrote both urban detective stories and Westerns (though I didn't like his Westerns as much) as well as John MacDonald (Travis McGehee) but now that they are long gone I haven't continued in that same vein (all sailing books all the time). I felt the crime fiction and Westerns were all distinctly American stories providing a window on both urban America (e.g. Detroit) and the Wild West for each of their respective charms. For anyone growing up pre cable and Internet - the books and TV shows offered an education in US geography - the setting provided context for the tough guy who knew his territory regardless of whether it was urban or a ranch somewhere.
Peace my man...talk soon