(My sense is that I was rushing through email then, so I promised myself I'd get back to it when I was more relaxed.)
Well, I got to it just now as I'm busy cleaning out my e-mail box -- and holy cow, it stirs up a lot. Not sure though that I want to read the book, but you alighted on something that I have frequently observed in the gay (male) community: misogyny. <<One of the ideas that Stout wanted to explore in the novel was the potential connection between homosexuality and misogyny. He claimed to find misogyny baffling, and indeed to all appearances he liked and respected women. >>
Now, most gay men I know have strong relationships with women. I note my own high regard for strong women, e.g., such screen legends as Katharine Hepburn and Bette Davis. But some gay men seem to shrink in their presence. Is it that they are ashamed that they don't feel for them what straight men feel? I don't know. But I've wondered, as Stout may have, if there is a connection between the sexuality and their low regard for women. (I have seen this in some drag performances where gay men represent the worst of (stereotypical) feminine eccentricities.)
But those gay men are only a subset of gay men.
And then there are these questions you ask: <<What does it mean that the most prominent early attempt at a gay Western came from a man who was neither gay nor Western? What does that tell us about whose stories get told?>>
Why do we tell the stories that we do?
Food for thought. Alas that I waited three months to engage in this conversation.
Speaking of campfires, this does seem to be a great conversation to conduct around a campfire. Methinks we'd be talking until the stars begin to fade with the advent of dawn's early light.
I hear you saying that some but not all gay men are misogynist, just like some but not all straight men. So sexual orientation and misogyny are probably not related. This makes sense and almost seems obvious -- but apparently did not occur to Stout.
Which is too bad, because at the same time Stout was writing, there was living not far from here a gay Harvard-educated English professor who loved all things Western. His best friend, the sexually liberated homophobe Caroline Lockhart, shunned him when she learned of his orientation. Might his stories have provided a more authentic (and more readable?) depiction of the 1930s West? (Or is literary success more about writing talent than identity?)
John, no, I don't think sexual orientation and misogyny are related. And mayhap your piece struck me because I have been fascinated -- and indeed puzzled -- by gay male misogyny.
I have many theories, perhaps better to say thoughts, on that. One is a jealousy of their reproductive potential. Another I related above -- and this would apply more to Stout's generation than our own -- relates to the pressure to follow the social norm. Now, yes, today, heterosexual relationships remain even today the social norm, but same-sex attracted individuals now are aware of alternatives to traditional arrangements.
So, you're suggesting that the English professor might have told more readable stories because he was gay?
I'm not so sure. There is some weird alchemy which leads to literary success. Take, for example, the gay-themed TV series "Heated Rivalry" about a sexual romance between two rival hockey players. It's been a minor cultural phenomenon. The writer is a straight Canadian woman (to note: there are a number of gay sexual romances written by women.
Something in her story struck a chord with enough people that TV producers found the means to adapt it. And it resonated with audience.
So, writing talent is part of it, yes, but there’s something more.
(This is something I have thought a lot about—perhaps too much! When I wrote my gay coming out novel in the 1990s, I was convinced I would easily sell it and it would quickly resonate with readers, becoming a contemporary classic. When I couldn’t find an agent, much less a publisher, I thought, well, if only…. Now, I’m not so sure.)
If the story resonates, it resonates. If the book sells, it sells. It got something right.
Ok, I’m rambling…. but you’re asking great questions.
I'm glad to be making you think! :) As a 36-year resident of Montana, I prefer Montanans writing about Montana over non-Montanans doing so (e.g., the "Yellowstone" TV show). But Montanans often lack access to NY publishers... or maybe they lack the ability to construct stories that non-Montanans can relate to. I find "Forest Fire" interesting not so much as a novel itself as for the way it extends this debate to a second dimension.
I had read a good article on the "Yellowstone" series in Commentary magazine. Sounded intriguing. I did not know that it had been written by Montanans. Do you recommend the series?
As to your point on Montanans writing Montana, I will note that I find something missing in the gay romances written by straight women. But they do sell... though a straight male friend (who has many female friends who read such romances) is convinced that more women than gay men read gay romances...
Sorry, the point I was trying to make was that "Yellowstone" was NOT written by Montanans. So its inaccuracies drive us crazy, and I don't recommend it. Yet Taylor Sheridan WAS an experienced/talented screenwriter, and I suspect that drives its success.
Good read. Always interesting to hear about writing that veers away from the Western mythology that still bedevils us today. And is Rex Stout his real name?
Great timing for this post. Just last week I was discussing cowboys in my Western class. You know, cattle drives, stampedes, and all that. But the only thing students wanted to talk about was gay cowboys.... Interesting.
How did I miss this when first you posted it?
(My sense is that I was rushing through email then, so I promised myself I'd get back to it when I was more relaxed.)
Well, I got to it just now as I'm busy cleaning out my e-mail box -- and holy cow, it stirs up a lot. Not sure though that I want to read the book, but you alighted on something that I have frequently observed in the gay (male) community: misogyny. <<One of the ideas that Stout wanted to explore in the novel was the potential connection between homosexuality and misogyny. He claimed to find misogyny baffling, and indeed to all appearances he liked and respected women. >>
Now, most gay men I know have strong relationships with women. I note my own high regard for strong women, e.g., such screen legends as Katharine Hepburn and Bette Davis. But some gay men seem to shrink in their presence. Is it that they are ashamed that they don't feel for them what straight men feel? I don't know. But I've wondered, as Stout may have, if there is a connection between the sexuality and their low regard for women. (I have seen this in some drag performances where gay men represent the worst of (stereotypical) feminine eccentricities.)
But those gay men are only a subset of gay men.
And then there are these questions you ask: <<What does it mean that the most prominent early attempt at a gay Western came from a man who was neither gay nor Western? What does that tell us about whose stories get told?>>
Why do we tell the stories that we do?
Food for thought. Alas that I waited three months to engage in this conversation.
Speaking of campfires, this does seem to be a great conversation to conduct around a campfire. Methinks we'd be talking until the stars begin to fade with the advent of dawn's early light.
I hear you saying that some but not all gay men are misogynist, just like some but not all straight men. So sexual orientation and misogyny are probably not related. This makes sense and almost seems obvious -- but apparently did not occur to Stout.
Which is too bad, because at the same time Stout was writing, there was living not far from here a gay Harvard-educated English professor who loved all things Western. His best friend, the sexually liberated homophobe Caroline Lockhart, shunned him when she learned of his orientation. Might his stories have provided a more authentic (and more readable?) depiction of the 1930s West? (Or is literary success more about writing talent than identity?)
John, no, I don't think sexual orientation and misogyny are related. And mayhap your piece struck me because I have been fascinated -- and indeed puzzled -- by gay male misogyny.
I have many theories, perhaps better to say thoughts, on that. One is a jealousy of their reproductive potential. Another I related above -- and this would apply more to Stout's generation than our own -- relates to the pressure to follow the social norm. Now, yes, today, heterosexual relationships remain even today the social norm, but same-sex attracted individuals now are aware of alternatives to traditional arrangements.
So, you're suggesting that the English professor might have told more readable stories because he was gay?
I'm not so sure. There is some weird alchemy which leads to literary success. Take, for example, the gay-themed TV series "Heated Rivalry" about a sexual romance between two rival hockey players. It's been a minor cultural phenomenon. The writer is a straight Canadian woman (to note: there are a number of gay sexual romances written by women.
Something in her story struck a chord with enough people that TV producers found the means to adapt it. And it resonated with audience.
So, writing talent is part of it, yes, but there’s something more.
(This is something I have thought a lot about—perhaps too much! When I wrote my gay coming out novel in the 1990s, I was convinced I would easily sell it and it would quickly resonate with readers, becoming a contemporary classic. When I couldn’t find an agent, much less a publisher, I thought, well, if only…. Now, I’m not so sure.)
If the story resonates, it resonates. If the book sells, it sells. It got something right.
Ok, I’m rambling…. but you’re asking great questions.
I'm glad to be making you think! :) As a 36-year resident of Montana, I prefer Montanans writing about Montana over non-Montanans doing so (e.g., the "Yellowstone" TV show). But Montanans often lack access to NY publishers... or maybe they lack the ability to construct stories that non-Montanans can relate to. I find "Forest Fire" interesting not so much as a novel itself as for the way it extends this debate to a second dimension.
I had read a good article on the "Yellowstone" series in Commentary magazine. Sounded intriguing. I did not know that it had been written by Montanans. Do you recommend the series?
As to your point on Montanans writing Montana, I will note that I find something missing in the gay romances written by straight women. But they do sell... though a straight male friend (who has many female friends who read such romances) is convinced that more women than gay men read gay romances...
Now there's another topic altogether...
Sorry, the point I was trying to make was that "Yellowstone" was NOT written by Montanans. So its inaccuracies drive us crazy, and I don't recommend it. Yet Taylor Sheridan WAS an experienced/talented screenwriter, and I suspect that drives its success.
The article I read focused on Taylor Sheridan. And I would share your suspicion. His talent/experience helps account for show's success.
As per your recommendation, I will not add the show to my list.
Good read. Always interesting to hear about writing that veers away from the Western mythology that still bedevils us today. And is Rex Stout his real name?
Full name: Rex Todhunter Stout. Fascinating man. More in Part 3! :)
Great timing for this post. Just last week I was discussing cowboys in my Western class. You know, cattle drives, stampedes, and all that. But the only thing students wanted to talk about was gay cowboys.... Interesting.